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Comment about Bethel Covenant Community
Have your say
Bethel Covenant Community was established by Mr Kevin Horgan and Mr Frank Carr.
They have been leaders of the group since 1979.
Mr Horgan has recently resigned/or was forced out from the Community,
Mr Carr and Mr Dudley have stepped down from any leadership roles in the Community.
This happened after Mr Horgan orchastrated, with the help of Mr Carr, Mr Dudley and others, the dismissal of Mr and Mrs Callahan from their job, position and place in Bethel. Mr Callahan was known to have different views to Mr Horgan. It is thought that the real reason for his dismissal was because he was a whistleblower, rather than his job being no longer relevant, beneficial or important.
Mr Horgan's departure is significant as he viewed commitment to the Community as more important than that of his marriage. He has left under a cloud, and there are allegations of him conducting himself inappropriately.
Now that he has left Bethel. How long can he stand living in West Leederville? When he moves to another location, how long will it be before his new neighbours find out what kind of person he is?
It could be reasoned that Mr Horgan 'divorced' Mr and Mrs Callahan from the Community. Others also suffered the same fate.
Do Mr Carr and Mr Dudley recognise their part in the whole process, or do they still justify their actions? Do they recognise that they were wrong in not listening to Mr Callahan? Are they big enough to admit their wrong?
Should The Dudleys and Carrs remain in the Community?
Bethel has a couple of new Elders, they were selected by Mr Horgan. They will need to prove their credentials as independant people who can rise above the scandal by
speaking the truth,
state the facts as they are,
put Jesus first in the way that people are treated lovingly,
developing an environment of healing,
reconciliation is promoted, and true freedom sought.
They will be judged by their actions. Will they be servants of the people, rather than be served?
Will they be leaders, by example, in healing and reconciliation?
Will there be free, open and regular election of Community office bearers?
Will the Callahans, Metcalfs be invited back and given a total and unreserved apology for the actions against them?
Will others who have left because of these scandals be invited back?
Will the usual cutting off of people, who have left, still continue?
There are many serious questions to be asked about 1) the future of Bethel and 2) how to fully address all the current and past issues in a loving Christian way.
Recently there has been an audit/review of Bethel's books. Will the results of this be made available and to whom? Will there be a coverup of the information? Will there be action taken against Mr Horgan and others if there is evidence of taking money and availed him of benefits not rightly due to him?
What is the result of the investigation by the Professional Standards Resource Group?
What support is available to those who have left?
What comments do you have to make about Bethel?
Please feel free to add them to the Blog.
Comments
Recently Mr Horgan has resigned from the Community, there are accusations of improper behaviour.
Mr Carr has stepped down from being an Elder and a Head.
The Community is going through a lot of change at present.
I cannot express in words the pain, hurt, betrayal. Years of secrets, finally coming to the surface.
I WANT THE TRUTH TO COME OUT! NO MORE COVER UPS! EXPLORE WHAT HAS HAPPENED IN THE COMMUNITY!
Manipulation, control,sexual inappropriate behaviour, money laundering. Times up- the truth must be revealed in order for healing to take place.
Thank you for your comment.
Unfortunately, we don't trust many people anymore, especially those in the community. The "new
The "new leaders" were appointed by the late elders and as a result are merely a "protege". If they couldn't see what was right under their noses, what hope is there?
I don't blame you for not being able to trust Bethel. You have been abused through the power of the Bethel authority; men patomiming behind the Word of God. What you have started doing here is listening to your gut instinct. Good for you. Your gut instinct, intuition, voice of reason or inner voice - whatever you choose to call it - is one of the most precious things you will ever have available to you. It is what will facilitate your decision making from here on, move you towards healing, and should you feel you want to, assist other's to learn to listen to their own intuition.
Use question the word "abuse", though unfortunately this word captures exactly what has happened over the many years. Whether it is verebal or otherwise, many people have been subjected to "inappropriate behaviour" within the community.
Now is the time to seek healing for
1.to use wrongly or improperly; misuse: to abuse one's authority. 2.to treat in a harmful, injurious, or offensive way: to abuse a horse; to abuse one's eyesight. 3.to speak insultingly, harshly, and unjustly to or about; revile; malign. 4.to commit sexual assault upon. 5.Obsolete. to deceive or mislead. –noun 6.wrong or improper use; misuse: the abuse of privileges. 7.harshly or coarsely insulting language: The officer heaped abuse on his men. 8.bad or improper treatment; maltreatment: The child was subjected to cruel abuse. 9.a corrupt or improper practice or custom: the abuses of a totalitarian regime. 10.rape or sexual assault. ..
Bethel-as the blog's host, can you please see why this problem is occurring.
I would like to reply to the comments but I'm unsure of what has actually been said.
I read the introduction to this book and I was staggered with the Bishop's insight.
QUIZ
Who do you think of when you read the quote below?
The following quote it taken from Bishop Geoffrey Robinson’s book Confronting Power and Sex in the Catholic Church: Reclaiming the Spirit of Jesus
ISBN :9781920721473 ISBN 13: 9789781920721475
Author(s): Robinson, Bishop Geoffrey, Publisher : John Garratt Publishing
http://www.johngarratt.com.au/images/extra_book_info/9871920721473INTRO.PDF taken on 14 April 2008
"Power
All sexual abuse is first and foremost an abuse of power. It is an abuse of power in a sexual form. Unhealthy ideas concerning power and its exercise are always relevant to the question of abuse.
Spiritual power is arguably the most dangerous power of all. In the wrong hands it gives the power to make judgements even about the eternal fate of another person. It needs a sign on it at all times saying. ‘Handle with extreme care’. The greater the power a person exercises, the more need there is for checks and balances before it is used and accountability after it is used.
If the governing image of how to act as a priest or religious is tied to the idea of lordship and control, then, no matter how benevolently ministry is carried out, an unhealthy domination and subservience will be present. The worst case is that of the ‘messiah complex’, when a person believes that God is calling him or her to be, as it were, a messiah, a chosen one who is called to some special mission and is, therefore, above the rules that apply to ordinary mortals, including the moral rules. In such cases, if sexual abuse does not occur, some other form of abusive behaviour will."
I believe this has been the situation in Bethel for years and all have suffered from it, even if we don't realise it-yet.
Yes I believe we have been abused!!
First insight/awareness, then healing.
I'm stunned. Don't you get it? They have been and will continue to be servants of Kevin. Just like most, they have been manipulated, oppressed, abused and most significantly for this point, they've been brainwashed. All cults use brainwashing to a greater or larger extent, and I believe all members of Bethel have been brainwashed, just like I was and probably still am to some degree. it will take years to reverse the devastation on each individual's ability to think for themselves. It's simply not possible to expect ANYONE from within the community to assume a leadership position at this point. I suspect, any stand-in elder would inevitably become a weaker version of Kevin. The community must be demolished.
As a victim, I want justice and action taken against the people who have caused all this hurt and those who have helped it continue for so long.
I want Kevin Horgan to fully realise what he has done to so many. I want to him to ask forgiveness of all us victims personally, no justifications, and offer restitution for the pain, suffering and humiliation etc etc.
I want those who have allowed this to flourish for so long also to do the same.
SOONER THAN LATER
Wow, for so long, we felt we were fighting this uphill battle of emotions, beliefs and frustrations, though there seems to be others who feel just like us.
Over the many years, we were told "This is the way God wants you to live- all females wear skirts, plastic surgery,be submissive to your husband/pastoral heads, when people leave Bethel, they have left you, so you must now focus on the people within the community etc etc etc". Where does one stop? Like everyone else, we too were brainwashed.
Yet, when we would speak with other people from the Catholic church, the content we were hearing from particular Elders was NOT the way of the Catholic faith. Hence, we didn't know what to believe! It is only through the revelations of the past few years, WE NOW KNOW WHAT TO BELIEVE AND THE BETHEL COVENANT COMMUNITY IS NOT THE WAY OF GOD. It was the way of too much power to particular individuals and how they have abused their "so called position as Elders or Pastoral Heads".
We feel for those who are still trying to "hold Bethel together", though like the previous comments, there are too many traumatised people, past and present and few current members who are equipped with the counselling skills and knowledge, to deal with it.
Too much damage has been done and in order for God's healing hand to come upon ANYONE who has been associated with Bethel, the truth must be told and JUSTICE is in order.
I know, the idea of people trying to hold Bethel together fills me with chills. I have an image of sheep who, without their leader Kevin, know nothing else but to continue on with the same old routine. I might be wrong, and I don't mean to offend, although I'm sure it's upsetting for some to hear it like this. This is upsetting business. And it is far from finished. Yes, Bethel asks for responses about what should be done from here. At the moment, I'm a bit too overwhelmed to provide a concise, logical response here. In shorthand though, I agree the community must be closed down, and the Perth Archdiocese made responsible for administering support and exit counseling to all those within the community now and to all those who request it. In addition to Kevin and all the people who supported his rubbish, the Catholic church MUST be held accountable.
very angry upset and angry about all of this.just can't believe it.
Dear Angry at Bethel and all on line,
Trust me, it has been a rollar coaster of emotions and it's not a fun ride.
My only thought on why they have used the name "Bethel", is that it could be found on the internet. The Bethel webpage was removed immediately after things came to the surface. People have reacted in many different ways, from phone calls, to letters on lettterboxes. Though it seems "Bethel's" way of bringing about communication, was by setting up a blog site. Many people have found it and lots know about it. Hence, communication.
We have all lived shrouded in secrets. I was always told, "Be quiet, it's gossip", even though I could see it was morally wrong. It was all part of the control.
It is awful and a lot of people are responsible.
I set up the blog as an experiment. I do not troll sites and make postings.
It was set up as a way of allowing people to communicate. A way of putting out, hopefully, accurate timely information, and have a listing of interesting links.
I do not represent the Community, or any interest groups. I have no direct lines of communication with people of authority past or present. I have never held a leadership position, in the Community or the Church, at any level.
The username 'bethel' has no relevance or meaning. The site got out before I could change the name. In hindsight, I would have chosen a different one.
I had no idea that the Bethel Services website was taken down. I was going to put the link on the blog, but didn't get time. I have a fulltime job.
i am a victim, I have not been subject to physical abuse, rather verbal, emotional and suffered from the abuse of my trust. The lack of support, actual total discouragement of what I wanted to do was devastating. The ostrasizing and ignoring were traumatic.
They say, when a person makes a decision different from KH and company, well they get behind it and support the person, what a lot of cokka de toro (not spelt correctly).
It wasn't as if I was doing anything wrong, immoral etc!
I sleep badly, and I remember my dreams(unusual for me!). The situations regularly play in my head. I used to be a good sleeper!
My dreams are getting better, I have got a much better sense of control.
I do want justice for all victims.
I want Kevin, Sue-Ellen, Frank, Pam, Peter, Gloria and others to wake up and realize their huge part in the trauma of all of us.
unfortunately i think anyone calling themselves "bethel" is going to get my poisoned darts for a while. i'm just so frustrated. and maybe also a bit paranoid. i thought you might have been one of the elders, either in or out, and thought you were planning to collect this information to use it to justify your own position in regards to the community. a bit irrational of me, i can see that now. but like others have mentioned above, i just can't bring myself to trust ANYTHING that aligns itself to bethel, a blog name included.
the very fact that we are talking like this is ABSOLUTELY INCREDIBLE and i could not be more grateful to you for opening up this blog and the opportunity for sharing and communication. i know others agree with me and we'll continue to utilise this for dialogue and support.
others who are reading this blog but not writing just yet, i hope you find the courage to do so soon because i;m sure a lot of people would like to hear what you've got to say.
I would like to see a history of the Community. I bet that many of the younger people responding or viewing this blog have little idea of some of the background.
It is credible that this control has gone on for so long.
The Pope made good comments on the subject of abuse. He clearly is upset by it.
Why wasn't the local Bishop of the same mind? I have been staggered by the apparant condoning of Kevin's serious immoral behaviour.
In the words of another, Kevin, "read this and weep".
To Alone
i hope that you can find support in being out. People who have left say that there is 'life after Bethel' and it is good.
There are lots of caring and loving people around.
God Bless you
Our choice was to accept the responsibility for our part in perpetuating Community and for just going along with everything (albeit sometimes out of fear ) - and then to move forward. The acid that was living in Bethel eroded part of our life and now we have largely neutralised the effects - we are determined Bethel will not continue to impact on our life in the future. LIFE'S GOOD
I have been reading the unfolding comments above for the last few weeks and thought I
To all who read this, especially those who are still in the community,
"A Faithfilled friend is a treasure for life", though unfortunately when you leave, for whatever reason, it seems you are treated as if you have lost your faith. When you are a member, you are expected to share your life whole heartedly, as this "opens your heart and spirit to the work of God", through guidance from the pastoral heads- or should I say "The teaching of KH!". You create what I thought were "true friendships".
When I left, for very valid reasons, I was completely ostracised by those who I thought were "friends and even family". It has taken several years to come to a place, where I can say I am in a "good place". Though I have required a lot of counselling and help. I thought it was me with the "friendship and trust issues", though as pointed out, it was the members within.
Now the people are aware of how damaging it is to treat people this way (this seems very apparent from the other blogs) and it was a mere controlling mechanism used by KH, it would be good for those to have a good look at themselves and the "friendships" they have lost over the years and maybe reflect on their actions. How does God want you to treat people? It seems a lot of hurt and damage has been done to A LOT OF PEOPLE.
Much of the harm inflicted on people is as a result of unqualified people providing what they believed to be direction to help people lead better Christian lives. The counsellors I have met since leaving Bethel avoid providing direction like the plague. People need to process what has happened to them and then be supported as they make decisions as to how to move on positively with their lives.
I guess adjusting to life after Bethel is the same as the grieving process - it takes time.
It's really hard to not stay isolated as you are told your GROUP is your new FAMILY. You put your all in so that your accepted but then when you leave or removed from the group you loose. Not only is it the group but if you have family still in then you are still on the outer. The people on the outside just don't understand the brainwashing that goes on. It's hard to explain to outsiders what's happened. CULT is about the best discription I can think of at the moment.
Alone, welcome with joy your new-found freedom in life. Do all the things you have always wanted to do, but were never 'allowed' to. See life for what it is - a place full of amazing opportunities. Make plans and set goals, and better still, work hard to achieve them and reap the rewards. Surround yourself with caring people who love you for who you are, not because you stand next to them on a Sunday.It isn't easy, I won't pretend that it is. I, myself, am an ex-Bethel member and after many years I am still healing - slowly but surely. I walked away one day and found that my 'best friends' were all talk, there was no substance to them. They spoke of Christian values and principles and of being people of God. They read scriptures and prayed. But the reality is they don't know how to really be people of God, they only know how to follow orders given to them by Kevin and the other Elders who are more concerned with maintaining their own position of control. I have met far more truly spiritual and virtuous friends since leaving Bethel who have stuck with me through some pretty low times and who have celebrated the good times with me too. Hang in there! And don't be afraid to ask for help.
OldTimer, I must admit that I disagree with your comment - there is life after Bethel, and it is great.
In response to comments made above:
"It is thought that the real reason for his dismissal was because he was a whistleblower, rather than
In response to comments made above:
"It is thought that the real reason for his dismissal was because he was a whistleblower, rather than his job being no longer relevant, beneficial or important." Are you still blind? Of course Pat Callahan didn't leave because his job was no longer "relevant". He would have been made redundant but would still have been kept as an important member of the community. OBVIOUSLY he did something to challenge Kevin and to make him feel threatened in his position of power. It has since been determined that this challenge was blowing the lid on KEVIN'S SEXUAL ABUSE of many of the women within Bethel.
"Where does Mr Dudley now stand on all these issues? Does he hold an untenable position?" I would argue that Mr Dudley himself is untenable - or have people forgotten about his embezzlement of funds from Catholic Homes? How can somebody who stole money from a charitable organisation (or any organisation for that matter) provide guidance on Christian values and morality? Makes you wonder about how much he has embezzled from Bethel over the years...
"Will the Callahans, Metcalfs be invited back and given a total and unreserved apology for the actions against them?" I ask, why would the Callahans want to go back into Bethel? Why would someone want to go back into a cesspit of immorality and egotism and into a culture which supports the psycological, emotional and sexual abuse of the exact people it is supposed to protect?
More importantly I ask, why does Pat not apologise unreservedly for his actions towards the people of Bethel, both past and present? Do not forget people, that Pat Callahan was part of the leadership team that created, fostered and nurtured Kevin's behaviour and a centralised position of control and power (which also included power for himself). Psychological and emotional abuse can be just as scarring and damaging on somebody’s life as sexual abuse. Various forms of abuse have been occuring within Bethel now for well over a decade, and by more people than just Kevin. (My first knowledge of the Catholic Church being approached to investigate this was at least 12 years ago and there may have been other calls for investigation prior to this.) Where has Pat Callahan been for the last 12 years? What did he do when issues were first brought to his attention years ago? - NOTHING! Let's not forget that Pat is not an innocent victim here. He is part of the cause and has supported Bethel in every way since its inception. How many people has he ostracised and 'cut-off' since they have left? The difference now is that Pat has finally been on the receiving end and he does not like a taste of his own medicine. I asked earlier why Pat would want to go back to Bethel - the truth is that Pat liked the power he had as an Elder, and quite simply, doesn't want to receive the same treatment he gave to others when they left.
To Anonymous1, I agree that the Catholic church must be held accountable, particularly as it should have investigated the complaints when they first came to light many years ago. I don't, however, feel that blame can be apportioned only to the Catholic church and I know that it is always easy to apportion blame to other people first. As mentioned above, what about the other Elders? What about the Pastoral Heads? Controlling peoples' lives, dictating how they should live, manipulating religion to support their own interests. Does God really tell us that women should be submissive to their husbands? Or does he teach that husbands and wives need to respect each other equally and be one
What about the Bethel people? Look at yourselves - does God teach us to shun everyone who has a different view to us? Aren't we all equal in the eyes of God? Have you forgotten what it is like to truly be a Christian person? Or have you forfeited any ability to make a decision on how you treat people and will simply do as you are told by Kevin and the Elders? I ask you to look back on the people who have left Bethel over its many years. Are these people wrong? Are they Godless? Have they deserved the un-Christian manner in which you have treated them? Is the Catholic church to blame for your un-Christian behaviour?
Apologies for the super long blog, but there have been too many years of too much silence.
Thanks lifeafterbethel, it's good to hear that time does heal. It's hard to let go of the bitterness - I'm sure in time this will pass. I'm angry that we did the let's say "right thing" and moved into cluster some years ago - but boy what a joke. All we've got out of that is pain and a big mortgage. I will continue to look for the positive as someone else wrote - put it down to experience and move on. There is still life in me to live and that I will continue to do "LIVE LIFE".
As to someone else's comment about the wife being submissive - this was a huge thing in my life in Bethel that I was seen to never be good at - I have since spoken with a sister who explained one thing to me which was good advice - God made woman from man - he took the bone from the rib so that woman was to be by man's side - NOT under the foot or elsewhere but side by side helping each other
Thanks Lovingmaylifenow - it's great to hear some positive feedback. When I read all what people have written it makes me think of a joke - not that this is a joke (i'm not laughing) anyway it's about this person in a flood - he keeps praying to God to save him - as the water rises god sends him a surfboard, boat, cruise liner etc but the man keeps refusing saying that his god was going to save him. Anyway he dies to put it bluntly. When he gets to heaven and has a chat with God he asks "why didn't you save me" god's reply was I sent everything what more did you want.
Think about it people - are you like this guy wanting whats already in front of you. God's already opened the door to demolishing Bethel or whatever. Are you who are left going to wake up and smell the roses? The writing is on the walls it's over Kevin's reign needs to cease. Stop the merry-go-round now and get off.
Hmmmm, turns out that I wasn't at all. I was in community for over 10 years of my life, through very formative years of my life. Not surprisingly, this affected my outlook in more ways than I'd previously realised. Affected my relationship with my partner, the way I viewed myself, men, women, my family, my idea of god etc. It helped me to discover a language around my experience, so I could articulate the confusion and hurt that persisted. Which has since helped me towards more clarity and healing.
These were just some of the ways in which the support has helped me out. I'm really grateful for it. I initially went to counselling for my relationship and would never of thought of going because of my lived experience of a cult. My counsellor was extremely knowledgeable about the dynamics surrounding cults and cult-like groups. She was able to work with me as I came to my own understandings of these. Helped me with my despair, anger, disbelief, grief. Others might also find it useful.
While I have worked through my sadness and sense of disappointment to reach a fantastic place of really enjoying life I do feel sorry for all the current members that have been abused and duped over the years - but guys you are bringing it on yourself. Leave now! Start the rest of your life! Find love and happiness like those of us who still almost every day thank God we escaped.
If you need help
I took up the challenge of Ex-Bethel
I went and spoke to a couple who have very recently left the Community. Even though I had received a letter from them outlining some of their reasons for leaving, I wanted to know more, find out the extent of their situation, which must have been grave for them to leave after nearly 25 years and somehow be reconciled to them. I must say that they were in a very good place considering all that they have been through.
I was shocked at the extent of the abuse and attempts at control that they had to endure. I am surprised that they put up with it for so long and the attempts that they made to bring the truth to the people who should have done something about it. (I don’t know that I could have done it)
Despite all that I have heard in recent weeks, I was horrified to hear the details of their story. I know that other people have also been badly hurt, but the reality of their treatment is sickening.
To think that they had to withstand unchristian behaviour from their groups and others is awful. They told me how their groups, which were supposed to support them and were seen as family, were so influenced by KH and other pastors that they were ostracised, didn’t enter discussions about their situation, were encouraged to not support them, and when given the opportunity followed the lead of the pastors and were extremely critical and down putting. Gossip was rife as people outside of the Community knew of their ‘disobeying the direction of their pastors’, and the leaks could be traced directly back to KH’s groups.
I was surprised the extent that they had gone to try to sort out these and other issues of a serious nature. A year ago, a letter stating concern about situations and asking for clarification on issues was sent to KH. He never personally replied to it, rather a pastoral head handled it by organising a group meeting that was very devastating and demeaning. The letter was pointing to the truth of the wrongness of breast viewing and the increasing amount of cleavage being displayed.
Discussions with relevant pastors did not get any acknowledgement of the wrong, rather continued support of KH and his views and practices that now are seen as grossly wrong and totally out of order.
After KH told Pat Callahan about the letter, he took up their concerns.
Discussions with Fr Chris Ross appeared to have little affect.
They had discussions with Bishop Sproxton, for whatever reasons, there was no action taken.
They approached the Professional Standards Resource Group (a group set up to assist victims of abuse in the Catholic Church) and are still waiting for an official response to their complaints.
I can fully understand that they could no longer be members of a group where the leader was getting away with his ‘grossly immoral behaviour’ and nothing was being done to curb it and others were supporting and condoning it. How could they continue to sit in the front row and say ‘yes Kevin’?
They were told not to relate with Pat Callahan.
When their letter of leaving the Community was dealt with by KH at the GCG, he said that they were behind the current problems and many other inappropriate things. None of which should have been said in front of children.
Kevin and Sue-Ellen and others boycotted attending and participating at their wedding as they were seen to be supporters of Pat Callahan and therefore it was not acceptable to be associated with them. KH didn’t even have the balls to RSVP, he got his wife to do it. She read a prepared statement stating reasons for their non-attendance.
It was apparent to non-community members that the Community person that spoke at their wedding was not in support of their union.
I wonder what was the reason for KH’s strong opposition to their union? Was it to do with his fear that they would get together and blow his cover by being a lethal combination and threat to his tyranny?
This is very likely when one of them gave a prophesy to the Elders, two years ago, about the possible demise of the Community if there was no reconciliation among the Elders. There were serious abuses of the other. Both are people of integrity and faithfulness. The combination of these two possibly gave some impetus to Pat’s investigation.
I found that the discussion with them, even thought the topic was painful and distressing, it was healing and positive in the way they related with me and treated their history. They talked about how they appreciated those who had reached out to them and are trying to and are mending bridges (especially those who have been in their groups). They obviously appreciated all the help they received for their wedding, the people who did lots of work to make, for them, a special day surrounded by their friends.
I wonder if the people who have ‘acted on the behalf of KH’ have sought out these people and attempted to fix things? Has KH approached them? Asked forgiveness and offered restitution? Has their pastoral leaders approached them? Have all pastoral leaders gone back to their group members, past and present, and sought their forgiveness, and been reconciled?
I encourage any of you to make contact with others that are in Bethel or out and be reconciled. Be bold, be Christian. The details don’t need to be drawn out, but we have a responsibility as Christians be bring peace – this sets us apart from others. As I did, I needed to ask forgiveness, the benefits outweight any negatives. I hope the people who have hurt these and others, have the courage to act.
If I have said any of this in a bad way, or got any details incorrect, I apologise.
The whole unhappy saga revealed here is a typical example of the workings of the church at its present stage of development called the mythic stage - here people see themselves in roles (e.g. man, woman) rather than as persons, auhority, the emphasis is on obedience, law, guilt, fear, power,
woooooohooooo lets bring back celebration week so we can egg kevin horgans house. Once the only highlight of every year for me!
I'm scrolling through wondering why no one is putting their names. It's over guys - the hold he had is over. I hate the barstard and am happy to put my name to it!
I'm most sad that for my first 20 years, I had absolutely no respect for my parents. As a young child I questioned their rules and hypocricy and was told by my mum that if he was wrong he would have to answer to God. That infuriated me as it seemed like forever to wait and I wouldnt be there to see it! I was told almost on a
daily basis that we were called to be in Bethel by God. As a child, I could never understand why the loving God we had been taught about would do this to us. Why would he want us to be so miserable!
I am happy to say that after a lot of screaming and tears to our parents, we have been able to heal and move on. I have gone from wishing I was in someone else's family - [a family that wasn't called to be in Bethel] to being SO grateful for the wonderful family I have. I couldn't ask for a better family. The change began the day mum and dad left Bethel. Everyday I am grateful that my parents are now free to be themselves... free to have their own opinions.... free to be individuals.... free to live the life they were given by God. I am finally seeing the real them and they are wonderful. Our family would not be the close family we are today if my parents were still in Bethel. (remember the motto they once had 'bringing families together' haha)
So here I am thinking of all those teenage years where I wanted to bang on KH's door and ask him for an explanation or go to the TV or newspapers. It has taught me a valuable lesson.... it will always come out, but at the right time. If it had all those years before, it never would have had the concequences for him that it does now. He would have been able to smooth things over but there's absolutely no coming back from where he is now. I bet he's missing his cash cow!
I have watching this organisation since its inception and my understanding is that the goals of the individuals were to bring together a collection of honest christians and their families. Each wanting to build on their family values by having a close relationship with like minded individuals to share their family lives and bulid a "community" to help one another enjoy a good christian outlook and to be able to openly discuss their christian beliefs query what they may not have understood without ridicule and be able to share all the good times and to receive compassion and understanding when times got tough. My observations right from the begiining were that there were some people just wanted to be in charge whilst others were desperate to be led... anywhere.
Personally the gate closed when people were led to believe they could "talk in tongues" I mean do any of you really believe you speak any language at all? Who decided this was anything other than gibberish? I thought that too many people being misled here but even those early questions were dismissed. I am not much of a biblical scholar but my understanding that when Jesus spoke in "tongues" people of all nations understood Him.
The commentary on this site seems to revolve around sexual assaults but there is a much bigger picture which all of you need to understand. ALL of you have been robbed and misled in a long and deliberate act of betrayal. There are many within your core leadership group that should have and could have sorted this out very early but each of you failed to believe in yourselves and got "sucked in".
Many questions I have for you all:
What happens now? Do you want to be a community or not? Act on that!
There was an extremely large amount of money collected and raised over the years...where is it? My guess is that assets are in peoples names as share holders or similar and those people may not now be on anyones Christmas card list.
Why hasn't the bishop or any of his clergy stepped in? He has his boy Fr Chris "I freeload at your party" Ross entwined in the group so he must know what is going on (not likely). The bishops lack of action smacks of all that is bad about the catholic church today which is more worried about what the press thinks than what God does.
To all those that have been emotionally hurt in all this I am sorry. I will pray for you. To the perpretrators, guilty of any mental or sexual misconduct understand you may face legal ramifications but you cannot take back what you have taken, but at the very least stand before those you have hurt and apologise.
lets have a bet on what Kevin is thinking right now. My bet is he's thinking that the devil is attacking him because he is trying to do God's work!
You've almost got to feel sorry for him (although I don't think I ever could) He's so mislead and driven by his ego that even when it's come to something like this, he probably still JUST DOESN'T GET IT!!
You are correct I was in fact referring to the Pentecost. Still... I stand by the fact that this was for me too high a hurdle and would continue to be for the reasons outlined.
I respect what the ideals (as I percieved them) for your community were set out to be, indeed think they were commendable. However the concerns (even call them instincts or fears or whatever ) I had at least shielded my family from what for many people have encountered and must raise questions of all that was considered credible in your own hearts.
Too many of you have lived in Jonestown for a long time. You can at least be grateful that some couragious people have come forward and given rise to some consciousness of what is right or wrong unlike those 900 plus people in Guyana in the mid to late 70s who suicided to uphold the righteousness of their "Peoples Temple" under the leadeship of Reverend Jim Jones.
I've only just realised there are a number of blog pages linked to this one (I'm a little bit computer-illiterate I'm sorry).
I won't repeat my comments on here. I will, however, make a few additional points.
Go Mary Littic - I have always admired your spark. Hopefully, I will feel comfortable in revealing my identity soon.
I remember speaking to a close (non-Bethel) friend of mine some time after leaving Bethel. He told me that he remembers so clearly the day he realised that his parents were always right. I started crying at this. I told him that I remember very clearly the day my parents (also in Bethel) actually did something right. I grew up watching my parents belittled in front of me; being taught that they were useless, that they were always wrong and making mistakes. I remember them constantly having to ask for forgiveness. (And for pathetic things like buying a new washing machine without asking Frank Carr first - I mean, this money could have gone towards Frank's retirement fund!). I'm not quite sure how to finish this off as I know that I haven't reached peace with this. All I can say is that Bethel is destructive for families - it has taken years for me to realise that, actually, my parents are good people and that they do good things. They don't always get it right, but they sure as hell don't always get it wrong.
Mary I couldn't agree with you more. I have been thinking exactly the same thing as you. We know him well don't we.
Also you have a beautiful family and I don't think you'd find anyone more christian than your mum. We could all learn a lot from her.
;-)
I've been reading this and hearing lots of people say that they felt ostracized and badly treated when they left Bethel, so i thought i'd better say what i've been thinking about it, and that is that i feel really sad that you feel that way and that these things have happened...i guess these things really did happen because so many people feel so strongly about it.
What i wanted to say was that if i have ever treated any of you with anything less than proper courtesy and respect, i'm sorry. I can't think of any time i may have done this and i can't think of any reason why i would.
It's funny, i've been in community for 24 years (married and have a houseful of beautiful children) but i've never seen anyone who left community being treated badly, although i believe you if you say you feel that way. I suppose the only time i've seen it happen is when a couple got a pretty
raw deal when they got married.
I guess i've been in a group that's been fairly peaceful, I've never been in any of Kevin's groups. Kevin could be pretty passionate about community and feel betrayed when people left and i guess as someone else said earlier that other group leaders might have also expressed disappointment or even anger. I'm really sad that there seems to be this uneasiness between you and others in Bethel.... I personally don't feel anything bad towards any of you, and i hope you might say the same to me.
You know, I agree that Kevin made people feel uncomfortable (both unintentionally and intentionally!) but he was very generous and dedicated and perceptive... - it looks like he's thrown it all away now - i don't envy the leader's role! Even tho people might have had a scrap with others and left bethel, that doesn't mean that their relationships have to end. How sad, and a real waste of something really precious!
Peace.
What about the group he had. Interesting that all the men left one by one after the
Yer, he has exposed KH's abuse, but has he said sorry for his.
(not just to his group)
Seems it is so easy to point the finger.
Kevin.Kevin. Kevin. What about Frank Peter Chris even yourselves? What part did you play? Where were all of you looking in the last 29 years? What responsibilties do you bring to the organisation...You were paid up members wern't you? How gullible were you all? I had an incling and I wasn't a member! I continued to voice my opinions to those I know well but all I ever received back was the "party line" along the lines of "we are intelligent people...don't you know I would never belong to any group like that..."
Yes you all do! Get your act together stop complaining about it. Make some decisions on what you believe is right. If you have been guilty of nothing else than association try going cap in hand to those you believe have been hurt. God knows the overwhelming majority of you are guilty of nothing more than ignorance. You have an opportunity to redeem yourselves in everyones eyes and to regain some self respect by at least acting on that!
good points overseer, well said. i suppose i'm one of those people who had an inkling and didn't speak up or loud enough and yet remained in bethel. i didn't want to lose all the good things that came with being in the community. guilty as charged.
Friend of a friend of an elders kid...
just wondering a few things..........
Were these women dragged into kevin's office in chains? and how old are they?
How often were their husbands there?
Has anyone heard the otherside of the story or is it all victim based?
These comments about elders kids ...did you know them? did you know how they felt? Were they allowed to wear jeans and date boys etc, did they like their parents being away at meetings and overseas trips?
Was anyone in Bethel not allowed to see outside friends?
Did the kids attend a local school or a bethel school?
Did they play local sport?
Is this cult-like activity?
The final thing I need to ask is....
I know through sources that there have been people in Bethel who have screwed up eg: affairs, sex before marriage, stealing, etc..... what happenend to them? The ones I know about are still in Bethel and have been forgiven.
It seems that for as long time these leaders must have doing something right! ? healing marriages, averting family finacial disasters, getting people jobs and homes etc. Do we write off the last 25 years as all bad....or do we say that they screwed up, they are human....and perhaps find a shred of forgiveness in place of all the help they have apparrently given to many people?
Others screw up.....why shouldn't they? yes its more serious, and has affected many people....but it alsways takes 2 to tango..will the other side ever
Let he who has never sinned throw the first stone!
PS: don't start bagging those in the committee...can't remeber the name....surely...despite their past they must be trying to do the right thing. Let's just hope they show the same compassion to the accused that has been shown to them in the past!
I can answer this one:
....but it alsways takes 2 to tango..
I think you'll find a court of law does not agree with you. When one person is in such a position of power, it is not a fair 'tango'.
psuedo-objective - were you a child of Bethel?
Hi there, just joined in.
But don't be confused. Don't start buying into the rubbish - that's what me and others writing here did for far too long. What you are displaying here is "cult-think": this is when the bad stuff gets "masked" by the good stuff.
got it? you probably are being or have been fooled.
don't start bagging those in the committee...can't remeber the name....surely...despite their past they must be trying to do the right thing
Be careful about your assumptions; they might indeed be trying their darn-dest to do the "right thing", but unfortunately there are some obvious reasons why their efforts are likely to be redundant. For example:
Rob Crothers (Chair) married Theresa Carr, daughter of Frank and Pam Carr, is this not a conflict of interest? Rob would be hard-pressed to remain "neutral", don't you think?
- Claire Gourlay has spent a good part of her twenty-something years in community, would not know what life outside a cult is like, it would be a challenge to explain how she, with all due respect to you Claire, could generate anything near a balanced perspective on the situation.
- Greg Diamond married Anne Carr, daughter of Frank and Pam Carr - as above
Finally, as not-so-old timer highlighted above, there is no fair tango when it comes to positions of authority or power as is reflected in our legal system.Pseudo-objective, I think it is a mighty awesome thing that you are part of this dialogue, that you are passionate about what you are saying and that you are sharing your views. I wonder how you feel about the replies made to you this evening? Hope you will keep engaging on this one.
KH is "Not the Messiah, he is just a naughty boy!"
Dear Pseudo-objective,
Looks like Kev just found his first recruit to the new group I’m sure he’ll start. He can’t survive without power. Careful as you’re sounding like many of the good living innocent people that were brain washed.
Please feel free to email me mary@monro.com.au and I will give you the definition of a cult from the behavioural science text books.
You, who haven’t experienced this shouldn’t be asking people anything. There are a lot of people with pain, resentment, questions etc. Talking about it and airing it is very healing. It’s been a lot of years for some and will take a lot of processing before some can come to a place where they can let go and ‘forgive’ as you requested.
This has nothing to do with any sexual harassment claims. I didn’t know of this until recently and didn’t experience it directly. This has to do with everything else KH did during his time at Bethel. It was not one mistake by a kind hearted good person, it was so many thousands of mistakes by a greedy power hungry human being. How can you dismiss what this man has done as simply “everyone makes mistakes”. It’s trivialising the things that were done, length of time it went on for and peoples pain. That’s a big call coming from someone who didn’t experience the devastating effects of Bethel
This went on for years and years and to be honest I can’t see Kevin Horgan saying I made mistakes and I’M SORRY. A person in a position of such power is completely responsible for years and years of mistakes. By assuming a role of such power over so many people’s lives, he has to now face the consequences for his actions. He never took on board any constructive criticism but rather shouted down any person who would DARE question him. I would be very surprised if the words ‘I’m sorry’ have ever left KH lips! He doesn’t know how to be ‘wrong’. He expected everyone else to take his criticism and be constantly asking for forgiveness but would never take anything on board himself. If he wasn’t the most self righteous man in Perth, he would have been able to take on board suggestions and complaints and make necessary changes so it didn’t come to this. So in answer to your statement “everybody makes mistakes” YES THEY DO AND HE IS ABSOLUTELY RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS - for the lives he has damaged through his self righteousness and greed for power.
***************MY MEMORIES OF BETHEL**************
OUTSIDE FRIENDS
It was STRONGLY discouraged to have contact or participate in activities outside of Bethel. If you weren’t there, you can’t even possibly imagine it. Adults had to ask permission to do SO many things. Do you believe it right that an adult should have to ask permission to go to her father’s 80th birthday celebration because it coincided with the time the Sunday gathering was on! I mean really it was beyond ridiculous! There were so many commitments being introduced that there was more or less no time for anyone outside of Bethel and that’s the way they liked it.
My brother was told he couldn’t go to his year 12 ball with a girl from his school because she wasn’t in Bethel. I have over a 100 stories like this – smells like a cult to me!
DATING
Yes, you weren’t allowed to date boys like ‘normal’ people. Someone correct me if I’m wrong… Once you were 18 or 21?, you had to see your group leader who would council you and decide when you were ready to go on a dating list. I never knew anyone below the age of 25 who would have been on that list. Once you ‘qualified’ you were ONLY allowed to date people within Bethel who were on that list. My guess would be 0-5 people available at best. God help you if you weren’t attracted to one of them - very limiting and also the reason why women who have since left missed their chance to have children. Pseudo-objective, if you are a girl and either want or have children, whilst you’re asking that everyone have forgiveness – spare a thought for these women and what they would be feeling.
FREEDOM OF SPEECH
Freedom of speech concerning any queries on rules and regulations or way things were handled were not tolerated. If it went to Kevin and you managed not to get shouted at, the answer was sent back ‘that’s their problem’ and I’ve experienced that first hand.
SEXUAL HARRASEMENT
I’ve always known Kev was a massive perv. As far as any sexual misconduct, I have only heard gossip so will not speculate. However if it is confirmed it will sicken me to the core.
KEV’S KIDS
I don’t know the Horgan children well although I feel most sorry for James. Imagine that man being your father. It would be so hard. I understand that you are supporting your friend but you clearly weren’t in Bethel and therefore can’t possibly make assumptions or biose opinions on what actually went on. Look at all these people, can they all be wrong and a couple of people right???
EARLY DAYS
Yes I believe they started out with the best of intentions but the first couple of good years don’t make up for the last 20+ controlling manipulating years for all these people that are in pain.
FORGIVENESS ***** *****
Finally as for forgiveness, I didn’t know the Kev was sorry and asking for forgiveness?? I don’t have any missed calls! Maybe he posted an apology – better check my mail box!
Sexual misconduct aside ….. My comments here only deal with Bethel as an institution.
I have known the Horgan family intimately for approximately 20 years and yes I have experienced first hand many of the traits used here to describe KH.
I have been preached to on countless occasions about countless topics. I never joined and have never been a member of Bethel. I listened (and still do) to what he had/s to say (as I do with all persons) and disagree with a lot of it. I use my free will, moral foundation and experience to determine what I will and won’t do!
It seems to me to be very convenient for ex-Bethel and current Bethel members to blame their entire Bethel experience on KH and play the “cult card”. The person that he is and what he stands for has always been blatantly obvious.
Life is full of choices. If you decided to join Bethel you must take some of the responsibility for that choice. Sure it may have been a bad choice, but still your choice. You need to seek the reason as to why you made that choice.
For Children in Bethel look to your Parents for answers. It’s their job to decide what is right and wrong for you.
Blame rarely ever sits in one place. If you are unhappy with your experiences and really want to learn how to improve for the future you must examine your situation objectively. If you all come out uniformly blaming your Bethel experience on KH (or other elders) you will never understand how this happened to you.
DEAR LOVING MY LIFE NOW
Your post (below) has given me and others a great amount of laughs for the last couple of days! I keep reading it, it's so hillarious I almost wet myself! My poor sister Angela - Frank and Pam are her god parents. Her examples of good living Christians ahaha what were my parents thinking!
That reminds me..the biggest abuse I got (except for KH pressing himself on me once-ugh) was having to listen every bloody week to Pam Carr sharing her sexual shenanigans with Frank. To sit and look at this middle aged, multi chinned grandmother going off in raptures about his touch while us poor unfortunate singles had to listen
This is very poor form. To make those sort of gratuitously derogatory and personal remarks is not relevant, not needed and not acceptable. It's ok for people to express their views and aggrievances -
it's why we're here; but save your gutter talk for elsewhere please.
Everyone, the blog host wants us to post all further comments on the new page he created.
Dear Bethel Bashing
I had no choice as my parents joined near the beginning when I was a tot – when it was good and helping people. All the rules and bad stuff evolved around people gradually over time. These good people truly believed they were called to be there by God and as Kevin was the leader, he had the wisdom given by God. This was of course continually told and drilled into people as well.
Ridiculous I know but I understand how it happened. The number of people joining declined because anyone walking into that with half a brain would have seen what was going on. It was the people who had been there as it evolved that stayed without realising what was happening and that it wasn’t God but instead one hungry man.
BELIEVE ME my parents have had to pay for this. They have had things thrown at them and years of abuse – by me of course. They have whole heartedly apologised and genuinely believed they were doing the right thing at the time. I have completely forgiven them. They are responsible for my siblings and I but Kevin is responsible for EVERYONE.
p.s. daisey,
I have read all your comments and you are obviously still in Bethel.
It is my right to have an opinion on what I believe is humorous and state it if I want to. Lovingmylifenow also has every right to share an experience she’s had. After all it wasn’t her who liked to talk about her sexual shenanigans! Is that what you referring to when you said ‘gutter talk’
I’m all out there in the open with nothing to hide. Feel free to do the same……..
Daisy, your comments and "calling forth" (now there's a como phrase) to date have been typical of the arrogant and bullying mentality encouraged by KH and his fellow henchman. Now that the walls of your beloved Bethel are falling - perhaps now is the time to go out and get yourself a life and perhaps you can learn something about freedom of speech at the same time. Best wishes to you Mary and Loving My Life!
Well said and thank you. Best wishes to you too xx
Given that Daisey is still in Bethel, it doesn't surprise me that she? doesn't like that I feel free enough to talk about ANYTHING! Daisey, you need to let your hair down and laugh sometimes. Bethel is a sore subject for many including myself and I'm glad that I can find some of this humorous to lighten the load!
The rigid mentality is why there's hardly anyone left.
Things did change a lot, got less strict as the community grew over 10-12 years. I am just absolutely astounded that a Christian organisation and supposedly Christian ex-members or outsiders who have added to this blog are so unforgiving. Let me ask again....do any of you know about sins/misdemeanours of other members? Were they discarded with the same vengeance and absoluteness? I wonder....
I repeat....let he who has not sinned throw the first stone. Why don't you keep your explicit comments to yourself and worry about your own mental health. Its not your job to save the world.....let these 'victims' go through whatever health authority they choose. Maybe they choose to discuss their issues with other community members that they know and trust - just as you are all choosing to discuss issues with the people on this BLOG. Maybe they are happy with the IROG or whatever its called....mind your own business!
I know several of the elders kids in and out of community. Obviously they were given no choice originally as to their chosen way of life, and they are not half as bitter and vindictive as some people's comments I've read. If you think they had it easy....you have incorrect information.......you are wrong...be careful what sort of comments you make.
As for the wives of elders.....how well do you know them? How much of what they did and said is as response to their husbands views? Unless you have visited them in the last few months (I have not) I doubt you have any idea of how they are feeling or their side of the story. maybe they don't want to discuss it.....it would seem to me most people have made up their minds what their opinion is based on a small amount of either bethel based info given on this siite, or revengeful gossip of ex or associated community members. Thank god we have a legal system that relies on facts, evidence and unbiased juries!
Lets spend a little less time pointing fingers and a little more time focusing on ourselves....I sure as hell are not perfect....are you?
I could have said it better and it does smack of the way Kevin used to talk to us - I hate it. Sorry. I was annoyed at that particular brand of personal comments - this was what I was referring to when I said 'gutter talk'.
I still think they cross the line of reasonableness. I hope you don't have to get to my age to realise where that
line might be in particular situations.
Daisey, No problem and thank you. I'm sorry if I offended you. It's my sense of humour and maybe I should be just sharing it offline rather than on here. I really need to find some humour in all of this and that was my favourite and couldn't resist.
Psuedo-objective - ahhh a nemanite.
Obviously being so close to an elders child, you would know and understand exactly how they are feeling. I don't dispute that or that they would be feeling pretty awful right now. I do however dispute that you don't have the faintest idea how we all feel no matter how associated you believe you've been to Bethel. An association is not living in it.
It sounds like there are a lot of requests for forgiveness from us but I wonder if you stand there and tell Kev that he should be apologising.
Yes none of us are perfect. I am totally tainted with sin. The only way to escape it for me was to leave home at 15 when I had a lot of sex and took a lot of drugs and did a lot of partying - got myself pretty messed up. (I know some of the Horgan kids are/were doing the same thing) I've moved on from all that now. I've forgiven myself and my family have forgiven me. If I was still in Bethel, I would have had to ask 'the body' (all of them) for forgiveness!
The person I hurt the most with this behaviour was myself and then my family. I didn't hurt 300+ people in doing so. I would believe the other members with the sins you were talking about may have hurt the people directly associated with their sin and it's between them, the people they hurt and God. Why should it be everyone in Bethel that gave them forgiveness anyway. It has nothing to do with anyone else. The same way this is between Kevin, the people he hurt and God. It just happens that he hurt a lot of people and had a responsibility to do the right thing given his position of power. You keep mentioning forgiveness but doesn't someone apologise and ask for forgiveness??? To my knowledge, there has been no sorry - maybe you should have a chat to him about saying sorry and it might start the healing process which will lead to forgiveness!
been there Daisy. I find myself saying and doing things in a way that reminds me of the attitudes in Bethel that i don't like, especially with my young children. i suppose i can't say that this is all due to Kevin's influence though. i'm sure it's party that, but also partly me, partly my parents and partly just human nature.
Wow! Years of secrects are FINALLY being revealed!!!!! I have sat on secrets for soooooo many years and told if I spoke, it was gossip, hence the years of silence.
As horrible as this all is, current members, recently left members,ex members and anyone associated with Bethel, we must trust God has a bigger plan-HEALING.
Yes, people are scrambling to blame,point the finger, find solutions, vent etc though whatever we are feeling has to come out, as it is part of God's bigger picture.
We are not here to judge. It is clear a lot of injustice has been done over many years (I should know, I was a target for many years!!!!). I feel angry, bitter, ostracised, betrayed etc for a lot of what has happened to me and my family, though now being out and spending time with the gifts God has to offer, I also feel joy, love and acceptance from a wider world FOR BEING ME!
God is bigger than this nightmare and I seek comfort from the joy of my family and my friends.
You're absolutely right. Although I doubted it when I was in Bethel - There is a God and I know I've been looked after - I probably would have ended my own life years ago had there not been that someone looking out for me. He's clearly undoing this mess for everyone at the moment.
If you're talking about my secrets - I have none! This is me, this is my past and I have no reason to hide it - I am responsible for it and I can't take it back! I have no stop button - I never want to be suppressed. If I have an opinion or I've done something bad, I'm more than happy to tell you or anyone and I don't really care what people think. This has no doubt come from my rebellion against Bethel but I see it as a good thing that's come from a bad thing. I'm more than happy with my life, friends and family.
Having said that I'm a very good secret keeper when it comes to other people so if you want to email me, please do mary@monro.com.au
I don't pretend I'm a good Christian although I'm trying to take baby steps. I know it goes against everything we have been taught as christians but because I'm a weak christian, I will be revelling in the mess KH has got himself into for a while and I can't pretend I'm not happy (almost ecstatic if you want the truth). It's been a long time coming in my head so I will enjoy it for a while and then work on forgiveness!
I've flooded this page with my thoughts (too much I know) and there's now a pro horgan person that's pressing a button which hasn't been pressed for a long time so I'm signing out for a while because I don't want it to take hold. I'll be back as soon as I've resolved these angry feelings that have reared their ugly head again!
Thank you to everyone for sharing and for the kind things you've said.... Especially the one about my mum - very true... and the one about me having spark - I think that used to be called rage but hopefuly it's died down to a spark hehehe!
I hope everyone finds peace. YOU GO GUYS AND GIRLS - enjoy freedom!!
Much Love sent your way
Mary
xoxoxoxoxoxo
From the various attestations here, I can only conclude that Kevin and possibly other Leaders have bullied members of the Bethel community. This is sad and, unfortunately, not uncommon. Luckily, when I have challenged Kevin and Sue I have just been dismissed as an unfortunate relative who just refuses to step into the light. Neither has ever had any opportunity to have any leverage over my life.
So, that is my background. I can accept that Kevin may have bullied others and in this way abused his position of leadership in the Bethel community, but I was shocked by the suggested sexual impropriety. I certainly wouldn't attempt to dispute any claims, because I simply don't know the truth. However, can someone please state of what Kevin has been accused? All I've heard thus far are vagaries. Perhaps the accusations have been detailed to the Bethel community. Perhaps not. But there are suggestions of sexual impropriety in the above posts that are not backed up with any detail. Maybe they've been edited out.
For those of you who have been abused in any way, do continue to talk about it - here if you choose to. But do seek professional support. I know that venting your feelings will make you feel better, but it is unlikely to heal.
I am not suprised that this is finally happening.
Sorry - never blogged before and I didn't get my whole 10 cents worth displayed. Hope I do it right this time.
I am not suprised that this is finally happening. I have only ever been assoicated with Bethel on the fringes and not for a very long time. Years ago I suffered at the hands of KH via a 3 hour counselling session. I came to understand how he gained control over people and exerted undue influence over them. During the three hours he belittled me, my beliefs and behaviour continually, and then put suggestions into my head as to how I should behave, what I should believe etc. After just this one session I came away with doubts over long held beliefs of mine. When (after praying and thinking about what he had said to me) I realised that I did not agree with his views and the thoughts he had implanted in my head, I worked out that by stripping people of their self esteem and self beliefs, he could implant any suggestions into their mind. No other word to describe this than brainwashing. From that moment on, I had nothing personally to do with them. Unfortunately I have had to live with KH's control over someone in my life for many years. There was always a third person in the relationship between the Bethel member and myself. Not a way to have a firendship, marriage or relationship. But that is the way many people in the Community lived out their relationships - always with a third party involved and knowing all.
I personally hold Archbishop Hickey and his Neocatechumenate loving 2 I C, Bishop Sproxton, personally and partly responsible for this ongoing traumatising of their 'flock'.
Several years ago, a number of ex-Bethel members and I put together a very extensive and well researched dossier on the activities of KH and the organisation and influence of Bethel and presented it to His dis-Grace, Archbishop Hickey. We didn't do this lightly. We took many months to complete the document and talked to Canon Law and Doctrinal experts in order to back up our claims. He had an appointment to see His dis-Grace, discussed the issues and asked him to basically to take some form of action either talking to ROme about the misdeeds or disowning Bethel via publicly repudiating it, taking it out of ARchdiocesan directory, etc. His dis-Grace listened respectfully to us, asked questions of us to clarify what we were trying to tell him, told us in his own words what he thought we were saying (can tell he was a social worker by trade) and then promised he would look into it. Nothing happened - yet again.
Yes, I know there was an 'investigation' years before undertaken by KH's good friend and confidante, Fr Chris Ross. The changes recommended by His dis-Grace were not passed on down to COmmunity members and nothing really eventuated. Job well done, I say! - not!!!!
It is dis-Graceful, immoral, unChristian and ineffective the leadership that has been displayed Hickey and his Neocat 2 I C (and don't get me started on the cult like activities of the Neocatechumenate Way and its disruptive influences in several Perth parishes).
With all the evidence we provided (including financial information obtained from ASIC) it beggars belief that inaction was the end result. Did not Jesus throw out the tax men from the Temple? WHy couldn't His dis-Grace have done the same? Why? Because it takes balls to stand up to the conservative Catholic mafia that run the Perth Archdiocese and I am afraid God's head representative here in Perth is a eunich when it comes to having the chutzpah to deal with really thorny issues.
I do wonder if, all those years ago, he had really listened and taken action, Bethel would have grown into a healthy community and all the abuse and trauma would have been stopped.
I am not suprised that it is the Anglican Professional Standards Group that are acting to help members. Why is the Catholic organisation of the same ilk so silent? Perhaps either Hickey or Sproxton are on the board? Or am I being too cynical? Maybe inaction is systemic in the Archdiocese of Perth? And they wonder why the young and not so young like me are leavcing in droves.
I pray that the current and past members of Bethel get some healing from this and I agree with the post stating the connection of the Interim Leadership team to the old leadership team - don't build Bethel again on the back of old relationships and corrupting control mechanisms taught to these new leaders for years. How can you trust anyone who has been brainwashed for so long to suddenly turn over a new leaf. Let it go. Set the COmmunity members free to heal.
.
I know we were not the first to complain and nor were we the last.
Before I start....good on you Mary Litic...and to all reading, the non- Bethel and current Bethel....what Mary has said about the community is right on the money. No lies about it. For people that cant agree or cannot see this truth it is because you are STILL brainwashed and are to afraid to see the light.
I was 1 yrs old when my family joined the community and when I had the realisation that my opinion is my opinion (and NO ONE can take that away from me) I rebelled from my parents from the community and from the church. My parents, due to the fact that their views were not of their own and it was the communities strict LAWS that they were abiding by. ie, 1. girls NOT allowed to wear pants - I argued the fact why I wasnt allowed to wear pants when I was playing in a sand pit and being a kid why did God came into that!!!, 2 .why I was never allowed to go to ANY school kids birthdays that were out of community (because they arent good people) I even had to argue just to play with friends after school if they werent in community... this for starters inhibites ones own choices in choosing their own friends a detrimental life learning experience!! 3.Being told to sing god songs AGAINST my will at church and at Commo (religion is a personal choice and should never be forced apon anyone which brings my reason to why Im now against anything GOD
If god said do not judge - why has Kevin instilled in ALL bethel goers that all leavers are to be ostracised (judging them for leaving the community)?? One good example was Alana Gloss' marriage after the family had left she had invited a few Bethel goers to her wedding to the point Kevin had brought it up at the Gathering (dont quote me on words as I barely remember....he pretty much told people that he was not infavour of these people attending the wedding, for all I know maybe a couple people rebelled to that and went.) Who is he telling others they cant go to a friends wedding because they left community?? HELLO!!!! God never told us we are only to wear skirts... KEVIN did. (who honestly thinks god is speaking to him...if this was so would he be the next saint...and wouldnt people be flocking to see him?? God put us here on earth NAKED, it shouldnt matter what clothes we wear as long as we are living truthful happy lives and live a Catholic life. I myself dont go to church at all though I still do unto othered as I would have done to me...I live by that all the time, not because God said so.....I do so because it is Moral.
I could really go on and on here though Im sure you all know or are now coming to terms with these issues and the many sexual allegations towards Kevin. Besides these sexual allegations the rest of it has been happening for years. I saw it and I left, I had alot of anugish when I left and many people made their own minds up about the stories that were fed to them about myself which fuelled my anger and hatred towards the community as a whole. Not only that but a few faces shine out especially the way in which I was looked at by them with judgement when not one person in the community had known my side of the story of things about MY personal life which led to my leaving the community and leaving home at a young age due to the brainwashing effects Bethel had on not only myself, my life and everything I knew.
It took Manny years to have my parents off my back for not going to church or being in community....they even looked at me like the outcast when I had to leave for my own SANITY (I knew their thoughts of me were thoughts of certain people from the community, though I cant speculate who) It was an added burden which took me more than two years to slowly find myself, years more to finally have my parents realise never to talk religion to me
I am not hear to point fingers at any of you who are hurting (except KH and maybe the elders who never stood up to his wrong ways.) Yes he thought he was doing the right thing at the start but the power he harnessed led to the demise we now see.
I have been out of the community for 14yrs, I would probably be a church goer if the community wasnt so domineering in their views, so I suppose you could say that after 14yrs I STILL have issue from the community. My blood boils when I hear too much God talk.
All I can say for anyone from Bethel to listen and this includes and is especially for the people that are unsure about staying or going... please take heed...
You are all Catholic people, you all go to church and sing songs next to many VERY Catholic people though you have probably never wanted to get to know them. Go to church, life your life the way YOU feel is right, I know it may be hard at first but I love to wake up and see the SUNSHINE!!, and spend my Sunday how I want to spend it without being forced or feeling oblidged or judged if you decide not to go to church, Make new friends (and even keep your good friends from Bethel) enjoy being NORMAL and live a NORMAL LIFE!! Because you are not in a community group doesnt make you bad, GOd will still love you, Be true to yourself and your friends, when you see that life out of Bethel can be more fullfilling...you can truely be happy. Please open your eyes ...dont do it for me or anyone else...do it for yourself, If you cant see the faults within Bethel your still a lost soul. I dont think anyone can change Bethel not right now....everyone needs a few months break to take a step back look at the whole situation with new eyes.
God never forced anyone to do or think ANYTHING...just remember that!
And for the people pertaining to the "whistleblowers" it sounds as though some of you may despise them for bringing to light truth and facts that are are actually real and intolerable. For the people in Bethel that are making excuses for KH's behaviour (especially about the sexual allegations) you are in right mind saying it is ok for sexual abuse, by turning a blind eye and not wanting to believe it is also showing reason for me to say that you are ok with him doing what he has done. It is not ok!!! For ANYONE who has been sexually abused (as I have, though not through Bethel) it is a very traumatic time for the victim ESPECIALLY when you have to face the problem, and confront all the people you know that knows the accused. Have some compassion, and think yourselves lucky for not being in that position, and dont EVER judge or despise them for your pain and anguish in Bethel braking up and you seriously should look have a good look at yourselves and your code of ethics
{for anyone that wants to say they have been in the comm for 24yrs and NOT agree on any of this is SERIOUSLY brainwashed}
PSEUDO... I find it hard to believe your a friend of a friend of an elders kid as you sound like your still in Bethel.. your blogs ring with Bethel culture in every word you speak.
And last but not least..Im glad people are slowly seeing the CULT that Bethel has become, I like Mary Litic have called it a CULT for many years as normal people dont understand the culture or what Bethel is, and in one easy sentence for them CULT is the only TRUE way to describe it.
Thankyou to NOT SUPRISED for investigating the finacial matters etc as Im strongly opposed to new cars when other people (some pensioners) do many hours of labour for the community without any pocket money to help their families .....the new cars and the elders pockets I see were more important.
The belief that such a site is in existence seems beyond comprehension. Now that its been discovered and the last day has been spent pouring through every post. Interest was immediately sparked. Firstly the thought occurred to remind someone posting on this site, and they know who they are, that a certain member of their family is not so squeaky clean, there is total amazement at their brazenness in posting and ripping into others because of either a memory loss regarding an unrelated event that would shame them and their family to their bones if divulged, or simply a zero care factor for something which could be quite serious. Things like this are not being detailed for 2 obvious reasons, which some of the people on this blog may be unaware of. LAW: mainly Defamation and the penalties that follow but secondly because As Christian adults it would be expectant that one would realize there is nothing to gain in slandering a fellow member of Christ, innocent until proven guilty right? It is at this very point in time that it should be highlighted that it would appear to myself and my colleagues astonishment a very startling fact, that ‘Patrick Callahan’ has not been mentioned in the headlines on this page alongside his other 3 elders in any derogatory sense, stop the press the man must be saint. Are we talking about an individual who was one of the 4 elders which were part of Bethels governing body basically from its initiation. Is the fact that his name as it would appear, has been left out of any slanderous headlines, erring on the natural instinct of any intelligent individual to assume that whoever is supporting this site and making regular contributions is an avid P.C supporter, supporters of a man who was also asked to leave Bethel. From an outside perspective if anyone knows how bethel was made up, (and it would appear obvious that the posters here do) it’s a startlingly obvious and alarming fact that this individual is not included in what would seem to be a page dedicated to the slander of these individuals and the Christian community they dedicated themselves to building.
This brings the main point to light, my colleagues and I have known the H family including K for years, and in our opinion the person is simply incapable of the things that, unsubstantiated, have been mentioned on this blog. There is only complete disbelief. This man has helped me and so many others from our perspective over the years and at the end of it has been trashed on this site for belonging to leadership in a Christian Community fully sanctioned by the CC which many of you here by the sounds of things, and as is the case with every member, CHOSE TO BELONG TO for years. It is the understanding of many, including my colleagues that the people in Bethel were there because they chose to join and furthermore to stay, no one put a gun to their heads, and if children felt they were forced into and organization or something that restricted them personally then shouldn’t it be THEIR PARENTS whom are to blame for keeping them there against there will?
After reading posts here, there are people who are seen as being very weak and twisted, if for whatever reasons, these people decided to be in bethel against all there instincts despite the free country we live in and then decide to bag it to a point that would make any Christian vomit.. all at once, feeding off each other like leaches, people who are perhaps so messed up in the head because of this very reason, that the following be considered very seriously. That any charity or organisation including places of employment, should reconsider recruitment or association with the bulk of the individuals posting on this site very carefully and FURTHERMORE be well educated in Internet Law, particularly the penalties involved in defamation of a person or persons online.
There is utter disbelief at the underlying question here? Who puts them self in a situation for so long that they feel is detrimental to their instinctive way of living, continues to live like this for ages, continues to tell me how good it is and then leaves, slanders the group THEY CHOSE TO BE IN and completely bags an individual just as human and decent as any of you in our book on a continual basis as a means for therapy. Hang on I just threw up and lost respect for a handful of individuals we know and furthermore are easily identifiable through there overconfident and transparent text posts which humorously reek of their known personality and writing style. No one will be coming back here to check the abusive or sorry felt retorts at your impression of the thoughts in this post. After all that would only spur on the very vault of garbage thats just finished being read. You people are quite ill, and I’m sure others alongside us would encourage you to get on with rebuilding your relationship with Jesus Christ before its too late.I speculate that Callahan has not been mentioned due to stories Ive heard that he stood up against K and that there was maybe a very big disagreement and in them leaving the community might now show others a reason to believe he is actually on their side!! Thats how I see it. I suppose only P and K know the truth in that...as well as the other elders.
People chose to be in Bethel, namely parents as well thinking they were doing right for themselves and their family.
Yes many have made very close friends and are very spiritual people. Though for chosing this lifestyle they never asked for co-ersion, belittlement, or for another measures like females being submissive to their husbands...hello what were all the equal rights issues about so many years ago...for Bethel to decide to go backwards and not forwards with the times!.
I would assume you may also have shunned many ex bethel goers - as you believed it was the right thing to do because it was instilled in you, or for that matter the behaviours of others moulded your own beliefs into thinking this was ok??
As for peoples parents, though this really relates to every single person in Bethel or who have been ascociated with it in the past... people came to get in touch with their spirituality and believed that being Catholic they were not hurting or doing anything against Gods wishes. Im sure you may also know, (or are still blinded) that when people believe in something so much they blank out the wrong doings or cant or will not let themselves see the bad. Trying to be free and saved by God only to have one stating to them that God told him....the list goes for how many years?? For how many Sundays if not Friday nights??
People wanting to believe in the word of God (as Im sure you did) believed in the "words of the Lord" which were spoken by one person alone. They lived their everyday lives by living out what was told to them, believing that these words were truly what God wanted. Thier equality was lost, their understanding of the real meaning of life was lost, their conscience was lost and Im sure others could add MANY more things to the list which would give reason to why they CHOSE TO BE IN without realising what was really happening. Many years of submissive behaviour to one with so much power ALSO brings to light why of the few, no one stood up as they too would have been outcast.
I truely do feel sorry for all that are hurting...though time only will heal wounds.
There are facts out there yes and they are substantial, as knowledge hungry human beings do we really ALWAYS need to know every little detail about EVERYONE?? ...let people have their privacy and have compassion for the victims (of the sexual misconduct claims) Until the reports have been investigated and whatever road this whole things ends up taking none of us will know the full extent except for the immediate people involved.
There are always two sides of the story and there are always things people so choose to believe... but Im sure that to all concerned Justice will prevail, the TRUTH will come out ....the facts and the EVIDENCE will be what determines the outcome. Hopefully then people can come to terms with what has REALLY happened here...
well done and thanks.
It must have taken a lot of courage to leave when you did.. and then to be a part of the group to inform the CC hierarchy of the situation in Bethel at that time...
What a pity they didn't act then for all those who suffered in subsequent years.
As an outsider I watched Bethel through the eyes of a friend. As a baby Christian I was uneasy with what I saw and so many rules I couldn't find in the Bible. I did a course with Adrian Van Leen Understanding Cults.
.25 years ago Bethel conformed to an active cult on every major indicator.
The control exercised by the leadership was not healthy, way too many women on anti depressants for that.! Isolation from family and friends outside Community, dis empowering of women and shunning of those who left common
Being a friend was difficult as this was actively discouraged. Time was short..
Endless lamingtons to be made and sold and then the car raffle too... all good for using up wasted time and energy.....
The excess loot paying for 4 star trips around the planet for a select few... just to let "everyone "know how successful Bethel was..... no ego here!
That further education and even part time work, despite need were not acceptable for most women really made me cranky.
The constant criticism /judgment of husband and children too...so sad and destructive.
On the positive side I knew what to pray against and for.
I prayed for my friend and her family, for protection and that they would be out of Bethel before the young people became ensnared.
That the prayers of the faithful would be answered and that the truth would be revealed to one and all.
So dear friends be encouraged
For God is Good
I still have my precious friend and I still pray for her kids:)
God created you all for such a time as this
Each day is his gift to you
Spend it wisely, (and have fun too)
Day by day
Lay what baggage you can at the foot of the cross
Bring what you have learned and what is good with you
That you may step lightly in the days ahead
Ps Mary Litic...thanks for sharing your thoughts with us...excellent
Here is another non-bethel defending bethel - you guys really show how much influence KH has over you - why would you defend something you never joined - or do you just love feeling so much superior to we idiots who joined? None of you can get over that we chose to join and chose to stay (often for a long time).
You have no idea how hard it was to leave - KH had rules for leaving too. I followed every last one of them in an effort to retain some respect from the bethel members and to be sure I was making the right choice. I went to the gathering and announced that I was leaving. There was no opportunity for anyone to fairwell me. I walked out leaving family and every friend I had behind- I went back household and packed the last of my small amount belongings and left for temporary accommodation. I took none of the communal furniture we had bought, I had nowhere to go for weeks on end as eveyone I knew was always at a bethel function. No body called me to see how I was - nobody invited me to their house for a cuppa or to their birthday funtions. I was not invited to any wedding despite being in headship with them for 10 years or household for 3 years. No one came to my housewarming when I finally found somewhere to live. My sibling in community will never ask me to be a godmother.
One person has offered generous, practicle support when I have been unwell. Pam Carr - even though I never call her, if she hears I need a meal she whips up something yummy straight away. Thank you Pam.
Feminist, All the pro-k people on here are telling us to be more christian. I find their double standards revolting and whilst telling us to be more christian, they are backing up the least christian of all!!! The way that you had to leave SICKENS me. What kind of christian does that to a fellow christian? We learnt how to ostracise from the master of ostracising! He is just experiencing a big taste of his own medicine. Having to leave your home, your friends, no one talking to you etc etc etc
I believe that Consortium has been in bethel and left when he did. At this time K only has the support of his family and one other person.
I Quote from Consortium - are easily identifiable through there overconfident and transparent text posts which humorously reek of their known personality and writing style
Funny that, I believe you and your colleagues consortium, are just as easily identifiable and transparent as you are.
Consorium - I have deliberatley written in a style that is ealily identified. I want current and ex-members to be able to guess who I am - my name is the biggest give away! Just don't want the rest of Perth knowing who I am!
By the way KH friends - he has talked about you at the gathering - talking about your conversations, descibing your beliefs, detailing your lifestyle and using you as an illustration of how the devil works!!! In private 'counselling' sessions KH was positively deflamitary about others. He once desbribed a woman I shared a house with as the most selfish person he had ever met - mainly because she didn't get up for early morning prayer. This poor person suffered chronic sleep apnea - and would stop breathing every few minutes all night long! Does that sound like a Christian conversation, with a spirtitual director?
AHH Finally!!! How nice to see another who can see through their words...you beat me to post the same views..
Dear Feminist,
I dont think we need to resort to swearing. All people who have blogged on here are or in fact HAVE been in Bethel...(as I have)
The only 2 people that I believe are saying it is "your own fault" are people who cant admit or are too blinded by the only way of life they truely know. (Bethel)
The only people blogging on this site have ALL been affected or in some way very closely connected to some of the elders (relatives/immediate family/friends)....the latter ( I firmly believe) are the ones saying they have not been in Bethel (to throw us from realising how close they are to the centre of this whole controversy.
The only people who I believe in these posts who have not been in Bethel (Robyn) are talking very civilized and are only stating facts that they have personally seen OR been told.
The ones claiming to have never been in it....(please everyone "open your eyes and your ears") can you not see these people are in fact against all of us who are stating all the TRUE faults of Bethel. These people ALSO blindly show their loyalty of Bethel in the words they speak.
I hope that all the hurt and pain eases with the help of proffessionals & of course faith in God.I have always believed out of bad comes good & this has always helped me in my life.I'm glad those that those have left, myself included...(a very long time ago, I might add) are enjoying their lives now.Depending on where Bethel goes from here..who knows. If people choose to stay then that is their choice and I'm sure most have had a wake up call.I personally have had no ill feelings, uncomfortable situations of being ignored directed at me from people in Bethel. As for Claire Gourlay, I spoke to her a couple of weeks ago and she was as lovely as ever....& unless I'm mistaken she doesn't have children lol
Maybe it was Claire's mum but I find she is also a very easy person person to chat to and have a laugh with. Also, most of Claire's siblings have left school or are adults. I feel that it could be a case of mistaken identity. Which could be really uncomfortable for Claire or her family, if they read this.
I have to say Lovingmylifenow I cringed over the Anne/Greg comment. Fair enough if that's what you heard but that's a very personal thing to air. Imagine if their children read that. OMG if that was me reading that about my parents ...lol waaaay too much information. They have teenagers which very well could come to this website out of curiosity....I just don't feel it needed to be said. The Pam/Frank comments...well, their kids are all adults and could probably see it for what it is. Just my honest opinion, not trying to start trouble here lol.
By the way, I'm really happy that you are loving your life now, are gorgeous and fullfilled
I just wanted to say that I am so proud of my sister Mary for putting her name to her comments and
Yours was pretty nasty!! I reckon slandering the litics is just as bad as them slandering all the bethels horgans carrs or whateva. mary and james parents aren't zombie's like real life ones hahah at least not that I know of. Maureen Litic is just losing her mind and has been for years its very sad and I dont think its nice to laughed at that. and Nico is ethnic and can't say much. And yeah I agree bout the second part.. they might. deluded not sure bout that one.. They were ncie ppl when I knew them ages ago, we lost touch voer time, but yeah definately not with itm that gal. have you spoken to her lately!?I aint seen em in years but suspected as much. Hats off if they are crazy I never spoken to a crazy person but reckon it would be pretty interesting, especially if you once knew them!
Thank you for your thoughts on my parents.
My beautiful mother has a terrible memory but losing her mind, I don’t think so. Someone losing their mind doesn’t spend 14 hours everyday helping anyone and everyone in need.
My gorgeous gentle dad is ethnic and has an adorable accent which is one of the reasons he’s loved by many.
As for me being crazy, yes I once was – when I was in Bethel actually. Thought I was losing my mind because I seemed to be the only one who could see through the bull shit from about the age of 5.
As for being crazy now, thanks anyway but I’m not. Ballsy maybe so the only one with a face and name to attack but not crazy. Very content with my life and sanity now that we are all out of Bethel.
Noodley,
Slander is an untruthful oral (spoken) statement about a person. Nothing Mary has said is untruthful.
As for Nico - he speaks better English than you can type and from what I remember of the whole family - there was no bad bone in their bodies. I bumped into them all a couple of years ago and the whole family was so happy and sweet and GENUINE!!!!
This site is here for our complaints, there may be the fewest pros Bethel and its leaders but there are definately HUNDREDS of people...yes the majority of people who are appalled, angry, wrong done by, used, lied to, belittled, slandered by the people who call themselves uptmost Catholics, told to wear skirt, told off if they didnt wear skirts, abused... does anyone want to finish the list as I have barely touched the surface.
Majority rules they say....and with the amount of people voicing their distain on this matter it obviously shows this so called "slander" is actually truth spoken by people who have experienced and seen so many things whilst being members of Bethel.
Here, here! Well said!
I could have an attempt at the list, though would be here all night, not worth my effort! The whole thng, saddens me.
I felt the need to reply to you in regards to my father, spelt NIKO. He's a wonderful man and has finally got the respect he deserves as an intelligent and thoughtful person full of wisdom. Isn't that fantastic! In Bethel he was treated by many as less than equal simply because English was his second language. Actually, he's quite amazing to have put up with the disrespect he received mostly by the elders and still retain his gentle heart. What a humble trooper! Love you Dad.
It surprises me in this day and age that people are still referring to others as 'ethnic', perhaps you shouldn't use that word as you sound like a bigot. Dad prefers Croatian. By the way, WAKE UP people from cultures other than your own are not stupid.... Charles Darwin's theory was disregarded years ago my friend.
I find it ironic that you said my Dad can't say much when you've used such poor English. I quote from your blog: "I never spoken to a crazy person". Hmmm, you may not have spoken to one but you sure sound like one. Although you can say quite a lot, I'm afraid you can't say it well.
In regards to my lovely Mum. I need not explain anything as she'll have a great laugh at your comments. She has a wonderful sense of humour. Isn't that great!
My sister Mary has taken after Mum in the incredible courage and integrity she demonstrates by not following the status quo. You have to admire her for putting her name to comments when she's having a dig.... Perhaps you'd like to do the same?
I'm proud to put my name to this as I'm proud of my family. Are you proud of yours?
P.S Thank you to those in Bethel who were always kind and respectful of Dad. xx
hi yeall. hope you're all coping. try your best anyway. well, i left bethel about, oh, 8 years ago. hm, sorry to hear about everyone's pain. i suppose i understand some of it. experienced it myself. don't like to bag people. i hope kev and co are not victimised too much. it's important to realise that we are all fallible. don't get me wrong, i'm not supporting bad behaviour. far from it. i believe, though, that kev probably did do a lot of things that he thought was right. again, i'm sure he was imperfect in the way he went about it, too.
for those who have felt abused, sure, make your hurt known. it's important you do. if justice needs to be done, i'm sure it will happen. if it doesn't, maybe it will happen in the next life. and, "no", i'm not trying to
hi dave, hope you're well. i read your post thinking that you clearly hadn't got saturday's paper yet but i see you're in qld. you need to see it....
this isnt his old "thinks he's doing the right thing" this is truly sicko sicko sicko wack and a bit more wack.... might even chuck another sicko in there!!